NGC Ventures founding partner Tony Tao and Dapper Labs CBO Mik Naayem discussed the status quo, development opportunities and challenges of NFT and blockchain games.
Original title: “Wanxiang Blockchain Honeycomb Academy | NFT, Chain Tour and Metaverse”
Written by: Tao Rongqi and Mik Naayem, founding partner of NGC Ventures and CBO of Dapper Labs, respectively
In the 54th issue of Wanxiang Blockchain Honeycomb Academy, NGC Ventures founding partners Tony Tao and Dapper Labs CBO Mik Naayem conducted in-depth discussions on the status quo, future opportunities and challenges of NFT and blockchain games.
Tony Tao: Dear friends in the Wanxiang blockchain live broadcast room, good evening everyone! Today I am very honored to be able to share the next hour online with CBO Mik of Dapper Labs. First, we will have some exchanges on Flow.
Flow is now a public chain that almost all blockchain enthusiasts know, and it has launched a lot of cooperation with major IPs in various fields such as sports, music, and art. How did Flow attract world-renowned partners such as Ubisoft, NBA, UFC, etc. With investors? What areas does Flow plan to expand in the future? Thank you!
Mik Naayem: We are able to attract these well-known investors and corporate partners, mostly because of our previous experience in the application of CryptoKitties , which allows us to understand application developers and users, and to understand what big companies really care about. Everyone will pay more attention to the user experience. The user experience must be interesting and fascinating. The most important thing is that the user experience must be safe.
The experience of CryptoKitties allows us to talk to these companies and propose solutions that they feel comfortable with. By cooperating with Flow’s parent company, Dapper Labs, you can achieve your goals, and users can also get a lot of attention.
Tony Tao: How will Flow deploy the Chinese market in the future? What challenges do you think Flow might face in the Chinese market?
Mik Naayem: The Chinese market is very important to the world, especially for blockchain . We have also seen a lot of innovation from the Chinese market, which is also very important for Flow, because Flow sees itself as a global network.
In order to enter the Chinese market, we will first cooperate with some developers and partners. For example, HashKey and SNZ, they will help us enter the Chinese market and do the initial development and development of the community.
At the same time, we also use a bottom-up approach, hoping to help companies and those technicians succeed, share our experience and tools with them, and help them achieve success.
Tony Tao: In addition, can you tell us whether Flow is already cooperating with large Chinese companies or IP? What are the specifics?
Mik Naayem: There is no way to share with you the big IP that we are negotiating, but fortunately all companies in the world are actively contacting us, hoping to cooperate with Dapper Labs and Flow. We hope that there will be some exciting cooperation in the near future.
Tony Tao: Does Flow plan to cooperate with Chinese native IP? As far as I know, the largest native IP in China is Sansei, and there are also some traditional Chinese cultures, such as the Forbidden City. Is Flow interested in these IPs? Compared with China’s local public chain, what advantages does Flow have?
Mik Naayem: Let me answer the second part of the question first. What are the advantages of Flow compared to Chinese local public chains?
Developers who develop based on the public chain face the same problem. This problem is not limited to China, but a global problem. Since the Flow team are all APP developers, we know the needs of developers. They don’t want the fastest chain. On the contrary, they need a chain that can help the companies built on the chain achieve success and meet user consumption. This is a global A common problem faced by all developers in the scope.
We have deliberated on this issue, and always think about how to help companies built on our chain achieve success. Everything we do is to achieve this goal, and we hope to help users of applications and products developed based on our chain. The number can reach millions, and this goal is achieved in a safe and fun way.
The first part of answering your question is to cooperate with Chinese native IP. We believe that IP is the best and most important way to enable mainstream audiences outside the circle to enter this field.
For Dapper Labs, for example, we cooperate with big IPs such as the NBA. Although the NBA is an international brand, it is mainly more popular in North America. We are more familiar with the NBA and we understand the NBA. But for other regions, we still hope to help good developers who know more about the local IP and the uniqueness of the local market, hoping to help them use the IP of the local market to create a good user experience. Of course, there will be Chinese developers using Chinese native IP to build on Flow, but Dapper Labs will not do it personally.
Tony Tao: Then there is another problem with the third question just now. As a Chinese, I personally very much hope to see that Chinese IP can be appreciated and consumed by global consumers and public and private chains, but this is more difficult. Because in the NFT field, the right to speak is basically controlled by certain overseas groups, including aesthetic and capital preferences and thresholds. How does Flow view this issue? How will it help Chinese IP to build global influence?
Mik Naayem: We have two ways to help Chinese IP build global influence:
First, help IP developers and provide them with guidance so that they can create a user experience suitable for global users.
Dapper Labs is to help them develop experiences suitable for global users. We will spend a lot of time with developers and provide them with the enlightenment we have gained.
The second is to bring users to specific apps through diversion. Deploying a global network through Flow will enable projects to reach global investors and further reach global audiences.
Tony Tao: Will there be content other than games and NFTs added to Flow in the future, and will it shift to or expand DeFi applications in the future?
Mik Naayem: As far as DeFi is concerned, we are seeing more and more 100,000 users using their funds.
Although the transaction volume of DeFi is increasing day by day, the number of users has not increased substantially. Entertainment can bring a large number of users, which is the first step. The second step is to enter the DeFi field. For example, take the NBA Top Shot game as an example. Now users can choose to serialize the NBA collection to a smaller size, or use it as collateral for borrowing, which can further unlock the potential of DeFi. . There are currently 5 to 6 projects on Flow that combine DeFi and NFT, which can also become a bridge to the DeFi world.
Tony Tao: IP cooperation with different countries will always be restricted by some countries. How will you help IP from different countries enter new markets? For example, NBA Top Shot restricts the nationality of participants through kyc. If foreign IP wants to enter the Chinese market, how will Flow help solve these problems?
Mik Naayem: As far as IP is concerned, the situation of each IP is different. What Flow can do is to become a bridge, a hub for docking, to help projects find the right partners and help them solve problems.
The second point is to divert users to different apps. Flow as a public chain, Dapper Labs as an enterprise cannot solve all problems. But fortunately, businesses, large and small, are willing to cooperate with us, which provides us with convenience and allows us to find the right partner.
To give an example, if the US IP wants to enter the Chinese market, it must find a Chinese partner to help them solve various problems including law and culture. We can help establish such a connection. In the same way, when Chinese IP enters the American market, it must be localized, and at the same time, it must be more suitable for local user behavior. We can also help them find the right partner.
In the final analysis, the core of everything is to understand the needs and find the right partner. Flow plays the role of a bridge and hub in the meantime.
Tony Tao: The next part of the question will focus more on NFT. Although the current NFT market contains various types, including digital art, game props, bills and others. But consumers buy this NFT more for collection purposes. Is it possible to get rid of the limitation of collectibles in the future and move towards a larger market?
Mik Naayem: The answer to this question is, of course, there will definitely be the potential to surpass collectibles.
Let’s talk about investment first. Now everyone invests because they see the potential of NFT in the future. As a collection, it is mainly because it is easier to develop and requires less capital.
There was not much money to enter the NFT field before. As a developer, you must develop products that are easy to develop and quickly enter the market. But now as more and more funds flow in, developers can spend more time polishing the user experience.
For example, the early applications of the iPhone were very simple, but now ten years later, you can see large and complex games on it, and things always develop in a cyclical manner.
First show the initial success, big funds will come in, and you will have the funds to develop on a larger scale and develop a better experience. We are only in the first 6 months of the NFT, and I think we will see more use cases in the next 3 or 4 years, so that large consumers can have an experience beyond the current collection.
Tony Tao: What do you think about the application of NFT in digital ownership and usage rights? At present, there are some negative cases in this aspect of applications, such as music NFT and short video NFT. Even if ordinary users do not have NFT, they can also enjoy music and watch short videos. In turn, NFT users have no way to get from this matter. Additional benefits. What benefits can the ownership of NFT items bring to the use of NFT? In addition to the collection.
Mik Naayem: Because NFT is not the solution to all problems. As far as listening to music is concerned, the current “rental model” on Apple Music and Spotify is already good, and real ownership cannot achieve a 10-fold increase compared to the current leasing model. This is not to say that NFT cannot be applied to the music field at all. It may be more used in the field of licensing. For example, NFT can allow music owners to seamlessly license each other, so that copyright issues can be solved and new music can be synthesized. , New album. The problem of payment can also be solved, and payment is made through smart contracts instead of inviting a lawyer team to do it.
True digital ownership is more applicable to those experiences that can give enterprises and users a 10-fold improvement. For example, NBA Top Shot, if the digital collection we provide is only photos or pictures, this experience is worse than your offline physical experience. So we chose the video. The highlight moments of the stars are captured in the video. These highlight moments are the reasons why fans like to watch basketball, so that we can achieve a 10 times improvement in experience over offline collectibles.
There are hundreds of different use cases in the field of music and art, but only some of them can really improve the experience dozens of times, and some real ownership does not bring substantial improvement.
Tony Tao: Different digital assets have different storage methods, such as a picture of a photographic work. What do you think is the difference between the ownership of being downloaded to the computer hard drive and the ownership of NFT?
Mik Naayem: In response to your question, at the beginning of the Internet design, digital assets can not only solve the ownership problem, but also solve the problem of who created the digital assets and how many of these assets exist. The combination of these three Make digital assets have value, and continue to have value.
Because the combination of these three makes digital assets give people a more realistic experience. Digital assets owned in the form of NFTs can be permanent, just like your offline physical assets. At the same time, they have scarcity and can also have ownership. Downloading this kind of thing to your computer’s hard drive only solves the problem of being able to own it, but there is no way to prove who created these assets and how many of these assets exist in the world.
NFT is equivalent to connecting the reality and the virtual world.
Tony Tao: Personally, I would be more concerned about investment. If there are many digital assets to be created in the future, I would be more concerned about how I can invest in more worthwhile targets.
Based on this logic, I will think about whether the existence of NFT and DeFi is used to help potential digital assets in the long-tail market that have not been born yet but will be born with unlimited possibilities in the future? It has creators and more investors at the same time. In the early stage, creators and investors can be combined with each other, so that potential digital assets can be created in the future. This is my point of view.
Do you think there is a ceiling for the number of NFTs in the segment? For example, will there be a ceiling in the NBA Top Shot field? What will the ceiling be? If so, how does the project team coordinate the number of NFTs with consumer demand?
Mik Naayem: This question involves economic models. The models are actually inspired by the fashion brand Superme. Superme will do a quick launch every Thursday, and every Thursday, everyone will queue up to buy it. Some people will hold it for a long time after grabbing it, some will immediately change hands and sell it, and some will regard it as a long-term investment.
Take a look at the growth rate of each placement. If the value is increasing, you may feel very excited. You tell your friend that he has such a situation. The key to all this is to understand your growth rate, because you want to launch to activate or attract more people to enter, so that people can get what they want, there are moments of excitement, and at the same time, you can’t make too many. To cause flooding in the market, the key to everything is to understand your user group, how they will use your product after they finally get your product, and the growth rate.
Tony Tao: What do you think of the current development status of blockchain games and their future prospects for blockchain games?
Mik Naayem: Blockchain games are still in a very early stage and have not yet achieved large-scale applications. For blockchain game developers, they are very lucky, because users know the value of virtual worlds and virtual land for a long time, so they can attract large investments before the official game is developed. Now they have funds in hand, and hope that they will use the funds to build the future game world.
But for blockchain games, they need to compete with centralized games, whether they want to see this situation or not. For game users, they want to get the same experience, but I believe that the future is definitely very bright, because we spend a lot of time on the game, so we hope to have ownership of the game and be able to determine its future direction.
I think that blockchain games have not yet reached the level of competition with centralized games, but the decentralization of blockchain games can help users and developers release a lot of value. I think it will be 4 to 5 years before great development can be achieved, and people can leave “World of Warcraft” and choose to enter blockchain games.
Tony Tao: Will most games in the future combine NFT and Game?
Mik Naayem: There are some games, such as MMO large-scale live-action battles, and war games like “World of Warcraft”. As long as they are continuous games, they will become blockchain games.
But for fast mobile games, such as cutting fruits, it doesn’t make much sense to become a blockchain game. Within ten years, those large-scale immersive games will become blockchain games. The blockchain game I am talking about here has an open economy. At the same time, users can have ownership of what they buy, and can even vote to determine the definition of the future direction of the game.
Tony Tao: Except for the blockchainization of very large games that you just mentioned by Mik, I am very interested in the investment of small game users, but it seems to be difficult to operate.
The advantage of blockchain games compared with ordinary games is scalability. Different games can be expanded and even integrated. In the future, many games can be integrated into the same world and the same universe. Where is the current expansion and integration?
Mik Naayem: I think we are still in the early stage, but the potential is huge. For example, within two months of the launch of CryptoKitties, I saw many developers developing different cat-to-cat games, or Putting a hat on the cat, cat and cat’s Facebook, cat’s Twitter, etc., these are very important. If there is a community for a particular asset type, developers can further develop based on the asset type to form a network effect. At the beginning, asset types and games gradually developed and merged. But it is still in the early stage. The first step is to achieve sustainable profitability for early games, and then developers can develop further based on existing games.
I don’t think this kind of future will be far away, because some early games are already profitable, so I think that true composability can be seen in 6-12 months, and explosive development will be achieved by then.
Tony Tao: The concept of Metaverse is very hot recently. How did you see Metaverse? Will it be the future? What is the trend of its integration with Gaming? How will Metaverse, NFT, and Blockchain games be combined?
Mik Naayem: My answer is a bit controversial, but I truly believe that if Metaverse is to be realized, it can only be realized on the blockchain. If Metaverse can exist, developers must develop without permission. This experience must come from corners and corners, and more and more experiences must be developed, and there must be interoperability between experiences. Users must Ownership of the experience, and it is also portable. Only in this way can Metaverse be realized through unlimited creativity.
Our early investors said that the smartest people often don’t exist inside the company. If you want to realize your ideas, you need developers to develop them without your knowledge and permission to realize the true Metaverse.
Tony Tao: Thank you very much Mik. Metaverse is something that some friends and I want to do recently. I will focus on the NFT field in China. I am an investor who prefers Chinese culture. I like games and Metaverse very much. I also like NFT very much. I especially hope to combine concepts. Find targets in these areas.
I like Flow and Dapper Labs very much. I personally think that there will be a lot of interaction in these areas in the future, including investing and looking for developers in China. That’s all for today’s sharing, thank you for your time.
